Transcript For Episode 2: Cultivating Supportive Motherhood Spaces with Zoe Gardiner
Read the conversation for the podcast episode here (plus links if you want to listen later)
It is very important to me that I can offer the Motherhood Minute community an accessible space online, when it is possible. Here is the full transcript for Episode 2 of the Nurturing Spaces Series with
I hope to help you access these conversations easier by allowing you room to watch, listen, or read the conversations of mothers on building community!
Transcript (time stamps may be inaccurate with editing)
Chanel Riggle (00:01.45)
Hey, got a minute? Welcome to In This Season, a podcast hosted for the Motherhood Minute community. Speaking of community, this is part of a series called Nurturing Spaces, Building Community in Motherhood. You can join in on the conversation at Motherhood Minute on Substack. And today we have Zoe, Zoe? I doubted myself again. Zoe Garner from Postpartum Matters.
Zoe (00:24.065)
is early.
Chanel Riggle (00:29.994)
And we are talking about how to cultivate supportive motherhood spaces. And thank you so much for joining me in this space, Zoe. I am really excited to talk to you. I've been following you a bit on social media and then I realized you had a sub stack newsletter that I subscribed to and I am just really fascinated about what you are doing. So if you could give our listeners a bit of background about who you are, where you're from, and
your not-for-profit postpartum matters.
Zoe (01:03.245)
Yeah, no, thank you so much for inviting me on. I don't do these very often. And I'm not that confident about speaking the words. I'm much better at writing, so please do bear with me. Yeah, I'm Zoe. I'm based in Durham in the northeast of England. I am a mom to two children, so my eldest is 10 and my youngest is three.
I have quite a broad sort of, I do a lot of things so I'm a research scientist and I'm currently halfway through my PhD, that's where I am now, I've been in the lab all day. But I'm also a full spectrum doula so I support women through pregnancy, birth and postpartum and I am director of postpartum at the CIC which I set up in, I want to say 2022.
and we support all women of all ages and stages but we also work to amplify real and honest post-partum stories.
Chanel Riggle (02:13.102)
That's so cool. I have never seen, so I'm in the Pacific Northwest of the United States and I personally have not seen anything like what you are doing. We have doulas here, we have birthing centers, but the focus, at least from my understanding, is mostly on pregnancy and then...
A lot of the care kind of drops off around six weeks postpartum in the United States. So I've been really curious about what you're doing with your space, specifically the fact that you have a physical space. I think that is so cool. It's not just a, you know, digital supportive community. That there's anything wrong with that. I found a lot of comfort in that.
So yeah, thank you so much for joining me today. What made you want to do what you're doing? You're obviously very busy. I know in your introduction post on Instagram, you had described your postpartum care after your second child as rubbish. And I'd love if you could speak on that experience and how it's helped you connect with other women.
Zoe (03:41.953)
Yeah, so I'd say the care is similar in the UK, that it's really heavily focused. You get a lot of care during pregnancy, and there's a lot of support during the birth, and then you're just kind of left to it once the baby's here. And...
I had a really difficult postpartum recovery with my second baby. It wasn't 2020, so it wasn't the pandemic, but a lot of the issues were around struggling to, I didn't heal properly. And then I really struggled to find and receive care because the problems didn't happen until sort of four or five weeks in. All of the healthcare providers had already sort of discharged me.
to my GP. It was this whole, I was stuck in this whole sort of referral cycle waiting to see a consult. I didn't get to see a consultant until my baby was four months old. I didn't get surgery until she was 11 months old and that's caused like serious long-term chronic pelvic pain that I still struggle with today. All really because
because of that drop-off in care, because there was nobody there when I needed help. And I, so I posted my story on my personal Instagram page.
in sort of September 2021. I think I had just had actually. I think the only reason I did it was because I'd just came out of hospital so I was probably still like not fully there from the general anesthetic but I was.
Zoe (05:28.717)
Yeah, I just had to have labial reconstructive surgery. My baby was 11 months old. This was the third day. I was due to return back to work on the Monday. I returned back to work from maternity leave, still having stitches right next to my clitoris. It was wild. And so I shared on my personal page more for myself, more to...
just to remind myself of what I've been through and how I had came out of it and was, yeah, that I was doing it. But the response that I got was just, it was huge. Like, so many women.
that I knew really well, that I would see day to day, commented on it, about their experience. And, you know, I'd known some of these women for years, and I'd never heard these stories, and I'd never knew that they'd been through similar. I'd been through it all by myself for a year at this point, and it wasn't until I shared about it that I actually started to realize that so many, it's so common, like so many of us struggle with that time period, whether it is because of physical...
issues or whether it's just because mentally having a baby is really hard, like, and we never ever talk about it. And so then, yeah, we go into this time period not really being prepared, not knowing what to expect. And then we also don't really get looked after. And yeah, that was kind of how it all started. Like, my Instagram page, Postpartum Matters, started as a place to...
share and together women's stories. I ran a survey.
Zoe (07:12.901)
for that whole year from 2021 to 2022, I gathered hundreds of stories that were all on my Instagram page. I'm slowly moving them onto sub stacks that they're easier to find. And yeah, it was just about sharing that voice because I think because we don't talk about it, it doesn't change because nobody else really knows. It's only when you're in it that you're like, oh, this is awful, why did no one tell me? And then nothing, yeah, nothing gets better
aside from really tired new parents know that it's an issue.
Chanel Riggle (07:50.542)
Yeah, I know that's something that's been really important for me too. My daughter is about to turn three and I still feel this calling to try to connect with other women or mothers who also, even if our stories are completely different, I think every mother understands that it's difficult in every single stage.
Um, and there's this beautiful connection in the hardship that I have found. And, um, I know not everybody feels called to talk about, you know, maybe a traumatic birthing experience, which I had, I had an emergency C-section. It was very traumatic, um, or something that happens before or after birth. And I just.
I really have a lot of respect for women like you who are trying to share these stories because it's important. And I think in the day to day, we have a tendency to maybe downplay the important work that we're doing. You know, like, oh, everybody does this. Everybody is doing the exact same thing as me. I'm not doing anything important, but we are. We're...
We're raising little people until they're ready to do what they're going to do on their own. And that is more physical and emotional and mental strength that is needed than I ever contemplated before. And I'm still learning. I really love that, like I said, you've provided a physical space to hold women in, in whatever season of motherhood they might be in.
I wanted to talk more about creating specifically a physical space to build community and motherhood. How are you helping women build these relationships? I know you've done like workshops in the past. Could you talk a little bit about the work that you're doing to help encourage that community building?
Zoe (10:14.081)
Yeah, so it started online and then it grew really, really quickly. I don't really understand how, if I'm honest, but we opened up, it's called the Women’s Health Hub Hartlepool
We opened that up in April last year, and that's how we're sort of in-person space. It's in my hometown in the Northeast. Hartlepool's quite a deprived area of the UK. And yeah, that was one of the, and it's my hometown, so that's kind of why I wanted to set it up there. And it offers...
We offer workshops every single day. They're free to access for a wide variety of things. So like today, for example, we'll have had our infant feeding social this morning. So that's kind of all infant feeding, breastfeeding, bottle feeding, bottle select weaning and all of that. But yeah, as well it's like a social space for new parents.
to meet each other and to get to know one another. And then tonight, right now actually, we will have the Women's Wellbeing Club. They meet at six o'clock every Tuesday. And that's just a space for women over 18 to get together and talk.
openly about whatever it is that they feel they need to. That's a national project that is across the UK but we host the light-heartedly more version.
Zoe (11:54.113)
Yeah, we have a monthly menopause cafe, we have an empowered girls club, we have a girl social. It's really, yeah, and then we have more general spaces. So I run a journaling workshop every Thursday. That is for everybody. Like I really wanted it to be a community. So not just sort of really separate because these things that happen to us and isolated sort of bubbles, like we're all just living together and the more that we can be together and talk about
and share our experiences the more we could understand one another and help one another. And yeah, so that was really passionate about creating a space where it was all kind of happening at once. And I think that's really happening.
Chanel Riggle (12:41.486)
That's amazing. I didn't realize that you had, you know, girls and menopause. You have a little bit of everything. It inspires me. It makes me want to do this here because I feel like there's such a need. Um, my community has a lot of great things about it, but I think, um, my specific culture that I live in here, there is a tendency to...
have, it's very difficult to build community here. And it's not for everyone, but I feel specifically as a mother, you either stay at home and you can build a community because a lot of the events that take place take place in the middle of the day. When I work, you know, a nine to five job right now, I don't have access to those events.
So I have to try to spend my weekends to go find them. And they're a little more limited. And they're always built around letting the kids connect, which is great. My daughter needs as many connections as possible. She's more extroverted than I am, but I feel very left out sometimes. And so I have to really push to make sure that I'm also connecting with women.
especially if they're in my season. So I'm just, I'm so excited to hear about what you're doing, despite how busy you are.
Zoe (14:22.241)
Yeah, and that is um...
Chanel Riggle (14:22.334)
I'm sure people ask you how do you do it and I always say I just do like I have to
Chanel Riggle (14:32.19)
Um, so one thing I've personally noticed as a, you know, a mother, I was a business owner at one point. Now I work a 40 hour work week. Um, I like to call myself a creative because I love to write, but I feel like it's a little more than just being a writer. Um, I also am dealing with some chronic health issues. One thing I ponder a lot is where my energy is being spent. Sometimes it's an hour to hour basis.
depending on how I'm feeling. I'm curious how you might navigate those challenges in your own life and what you might be learning as you go.
Zoe (15:12.565)
Yeah, I don't know if I have any specific answers, I think, other than it's hard. And doing it in community is definitely the way that I have made it work, I think.
And I've had to really learn that. I think when I started, it was very much just me and I was just this whole person doing everything. And it got really, really hard and really, really quickly. And I think the only way that I've been able to grow this is by letting a lot of it go. And I have like a wonderful team of volunteers who helped me not just like when in the sessions, but also like, yeah,
communication side of it with all of the like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff, an admin to set up an in-person space that I just didn't really appreciate when I just got really excited and signed the lease. I was like, yeah, let's do this. And then it was like, oh no, like, you have to have all of these different policies and all of this different kind of insurance. And I'm just so, I find all of that stuff really hard. And yeah, like letting people help me, I think.
is one of the biggest lessons that I've had to learn even if it's not necessarily like I know it's so hard isn't it I feel like you just you just so much I think you just get to a point where you just so at capacity you're like this is never gonna get done unless someone else does it
Chanel Riggle (16:31.518)
Amen.
Chanel Riggle (16:36.554)
you do that? How do you ask for help?
Chanel Riggle (16:46.51)
Hopefully before a breakdown happens you raise your hand. Oh, can someone help me?
Zoe (16:53.622)
Yeah.
Chanel Riggle (16:56.878)
So if somebody does not have the capacity to open up a women's health hub, but they are craving community, especially in a, you know, in-person setting, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot for myself as I am contemplating what it means to hold a nurturing space and building a community. Do you have any ideas or, you know?
any ways to navigate that desire because I know for myself, one thing that I've talked with a friend about a lot is she homeschools her two young boys. And one thing that she did early on was she would invite people once a week to spend time in her backyard. She had a beautiful backyard, lots of space, and it was kind of like a play group where she would invite certain women she knew.
who really needed that connection. She really helped me get through the first two years of my depression after my daughter was born because she just was constantly pulling me out. Hey, come meet me at the park, come meet me at my house. Can you think of maybe some other ways that we can encourage women to build in-person community?
Zoe (18:23.385)
I think it's just that, I think it's just doing it. Like, trying... I think sometimes we want it to be a really specific way and so we do all of this planning and then the planning, it never gets past that stage, right? Um, where you don't need to have all of the answers. Like, the important part is just being together and having the time to talk. And so it doesn't necessarily matter, like, what it is that you're doing or...
I don't know whether you've got a specific qualification or you've done like a specific course or yeah, like what it looks like. Like my, yeah, like this, my in-person work kind of started around my kitchen table and everyone would just come every Friday and I'd get like all of the paints out and we, like the kids would go wild in my living room and then we'd all sit around the table and have cake and tea and journal and.
It was like that for a good year and it was lovely. And I think, yeah, you build the confidence of that and it just becomes its own thing. But I think unless you just start really small, it doesn't happen, does it?
Chanel Riggle (19:38.034)
I think I would like to encourage people reading or listening to this conversation as well that like you said, it doesn't have to be this big thing where you plan. It doesn't have to be this giant party where you have to plan the time and the location and the meal. Like you said, it can literally just be doing life together.
And I have been trying to remind myself that because I love, I don't want to say getting carried away, but I love making things a little more complicated than they need to be. I like making projects out of everything. And so, just thinking like, no, if I'm going to target and I know a friend is probably looking for something to do, maybe we can just, I can invite them to the store with me and we can just let the kids kind of like...
window shop or I recently ran into a friend at our library and there's a playground outside and that was so nice and so I'm trying to encourage myself to reach out to her more and say hey I'm going to the library do you want to come with me? The little things are important and in building community I think when we're so busy as well.
Zoe (20:56.869
Yeah
Zoe (21:01.369)
Yeah, definitely.
Chanel Riggle (21:03.97)
Well, I am so happy I've had a chance to talk with you before we end this conversation. One thing I would love to ask you, and this is something I'm asking all the women that I am interviewing, is there one thing you would like to set down or let go of and one thing you would like to start or pick up in this current season? To give an example.
Um, one thing I am trying to set down is bitterness because I can cling onto that very easily. Um, and uh, you know, comparison. And one thing I'm trying to start in this season is, um, just having more gratitude when I feel that come up. And that's been really important to me, especially as my
child turns three years old and we have been having a battle of wills almost every single day about the most mundane things.
Zoe (22:10.429)
Yeah, three is hard. Well, yeah, we're in the depths of three at the minute. And there's a lot of crying from everybody. It's hard. Yeah, so one thing to set down, my goal for this year is to not be working all of the time. And so I think...
I want to set down the doing of all of the things and to know that it's okay to let opportunities pass me by, which I don't think is the same thing as saying no, because it's not, because I didn't want to say no. I want to do all of the things, but when I do all of the things, I get really tired and so I'm trying to learn how to just be like, yes I really want to do that, but no thank you.
And then, yeah, one thing to pick up was just leaning on more support really and building that. I think that's been like a really new thing. And yeah, it's been really surprising and lovely to see everybody step up and help me. And I want to kind of grow and build that this year.
Chanel Riggle (23:24.302)
I love that you said that as your answer. I also struggle, like you said, not necessarily saying no, but I, you know, I describe myself as a creative person and I get excited about many different things and I need to realize what my capacity is. Thank you so much for joining me. I...
I just have the biggest smile on my face because I was really looking forward to this conversation. I love reading what you were putting out there online and how you were helping women build community locally and also the digital space. That is what my capacity is right now is trying to work on that community and the digital space. And if anybody would like to join in on the conversation, I will be publishing this on the Motherhood Minute newsletter and Substack.
and sharing the transcript for those of you who maybe like me struggle to find time to listen to something uninterrupted, but you can read something at nap time. So if there's anything else you would like to add, Zoe, please connect with us there. And Zoe, do you have anything that you want to add before we sign off?
Zoe (24:44.641)
Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely.
Chanel Riggle (24:48.39)
Awesome, thank you so much and I will talk to you all on the next episode for this series. It's called nurturing spaces: Building community and motherhood. Thank you
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Wasn’t this a lovely conversation? The hub is so important. Big thanks to you and @zoegardiner