Transcript For Episode 4: Sustaining Motherhood Communities with Danusia
Read the conversation for the podcast episode here (plus links if you want to listen later)
It is very important to me that I can offer the Motherhood Minute community an accessible space online, when it is possible. Here is the full transcript for Episode 4 of the Nurturing Spaces Series with
. I hope to help you access these conversations easier by allowing you room to watch, listen, or read the conversations of mothers on building community! You can click the button below to also gain links to all Danusia’s books, podcasts, and more.This was especially important to plan for since the audio had unexpected issues.
Transcript (time stamps may be inaccurate with editing)
Chanel Riggle (00:01)
Hello and welcome to In this Season, a podcast sponsored by the Motherhood Minute community. I'm very excited that you guys are here to continue our series, Nurturing Spaces, which is about building community in motherhood. If you'd like to follow along this conversation or you don't have time to listen to this and you want to read the full transcript, I am putting all of them in that sub stack newsletter called Motherhood Minute.
Today I'm joined by Danusha from the UK and we're going to focus on the best we can, the topic of sustaining communities and building communities in motherhood. Thank you so much for joining me in this space. Could you give our listeners a little bit of background information about who you are, where you live, and the passionate work that you like to do?
Danusia Malina-Derben (00:52)
Yeah, thanks for having me, Chanel. I'm really grateful. It's lovely to be here. So I'm Danusia Malina Durbin and I'm talking to you from the UK. I live in a county called Somerset in the southwest of the Ooh, let me see. Well, what I do at my day job is I head a consulting firm that's a specialist firm working with C-suite people actually in the boards on decision making and top talent.
By night, my night job is podcasting, podcast host, but I also produce an ordinary show, and I write books. So, but 24-7, obviously I've got my children, of which I have quite a few. So, that's me. What I'm passionate about, oh, I am passionate about unearthing and revealing narratives. So, in whatever sphere I work in, I'm, I'm revealing the things that we don't normally talk about, whether that's in a boardroom, whether that's in podcast studios, whether that's in writing, that really is what I do. So it's very broad, but that's what it is. And of course, a lot of that has focused on
Chanel Riggle (02:29)
Today we're looking at the topic of sustaining communities and motherhood, and it's a topic we've been discussing for quite a while with other mothers, writers, and I'd love to know what your insight is on this. Do you have a lot of experience in many different seasons of Whether tending to younger children, older children, you are obviously spending a lot of time writing, working on your career path. I'd love if you could talk about, first of all, anything I've missed and what these experiences and seasons have shown you about finding support as a mother.
Danusia Malina-Derben (03:20)
Well, first of all, I mean, the running theme through everything has been that, you know, I have been present through having many children, so 10 children, 11 children, 10 living.
And so it doesn't kind of really matter what season I've personally been in, whether I'm in my career, which I've always been in a career phase, to be honest. So from teenage right through to now in midlife, I've actually navigating always having children. So I had my first child at 17. So I'd never not as an adult had any children. So I guess all through my life, I've been looking at how to be supported, but also how to provide support. And so if I tell you the early stage when I was a teenage mother, I moved home and We went to a town, I had four boys under five, and we went to a town that I knew nobody, and I was cripplingly isolated. I mean, just...
so immersed in these children and I wasn't working. And so what I did was I assumed that there were other people like me and I found a national organization and I asked them if I could start a chapter in that area because there wasn't one. And they said, yes, I started the chapter. I said, every Thursday, my house would be completely deluged with women, you know toddlers, preschool children, breastfeeding women, yeah I had a relatively large house but it became to the point where it's so popular we had to go to a hall and then it just lifted off it was an amazing experience and that was simply because I put a little advert out.
And I was very, I went to the papers and I said, I'm extremely, I was really vulnerable to now. I was like, I'm so lonely. I'm new in the place and I don't know anybody. And I need to meet people. Will you help me? Will you put a little piece out and say, where are the mothers that feel like this woman? Yeah, this young So.
I became, I actually ended up on the National Charity Committee, so in my early 20s. I only stopped doing that because I went to university. So off I went to university and I did my degrees and I became an academic.
After I became an academic in a business school, I really was a leadership theoretician. So obviously, as I've said, a business school. But the fact is, I also noticed there were no women with children at the upper ranks. And I was like, hey, I already have five by then, by the way. And I was like, whoa, hold on, this stinks. So I wrote about that and my writings on that are still used because I have my own writings, it was a book and all sorts of publications. So that was one of the ways that I became a support to many academic women to shine a light on the things that weren't being spoken. Like, can you become a professor if you are a mother?
was what I wanted to know, because that was my vision. That was my ambition. I won't bore you with the life stuff, because actually I left my tenured position, and I did what I did. I made the career that I wanted. I was on my seventh child in my maternity leave. I went back after leave, and then I left and built the company that I have And...
During that time, the ways that I've supported and found support is by setting up a podcast. So, oh, hundreds and hundreds of women I've interviewed around the question that really it's...It's about, once you're a mother, it's proving once you're a mother, your life is not done. It is not over. Because the narrative that we keep hearing is, well, it's not about the have it all debate. I'm not at least bit interested in that. That's so crappy.
excuse my language, but it's just so not where I'm looking. I've been looking at, because that's about doing it all, actually I've been looking at how do women thrive and be a mother, be themselves. So I've been interviewing all these women in the School for Mothers podcast, and then I set up the School for Fathers podcast, because I wanted to talk to men about their fathering, because, well, it's important that we do. So, and that just shifted, I've expanded that earlier, both of those into Parents Who Think debate show. So my answer about support through my seasons has been, I've created the ways that I, I've created formats and mediums that have served what I need. And some of that has been around isolation.
isolation, ambition, proving that it's possible, connection, so those are the ways that I've done it. So in very different communities, very different ones, podcast, academic network, books, actual local activism…
So all of these initiatives that I described before sprung from my own needs. Yeah, so it sounds very selfish, but it was like I had a need and I, you know, I didn't look outside of myself. I was actually saying, what do I need? And that was the initial spur.
And then in a way I was listening to the call of my own soul. Yeah, the hunger within me and frankly, the desolation. It's not isolation, it's desolation. And I created from that point. So anything that I've created has been, has sprung from my own desolation. And from there, when it comes from there, it has struck a chord with other mothers.
If I had sat and tried to strategize about what's the smart thing that I could come up with that would solve things for xx and x, you know, and I'm speaking specifically about for mothers, I don't think that anything would have been resonant or chimed with anybody because I was just speaking and I've
spoken when I speak on stages and I'm heralded in and I am heralded in as this, you know, career woman with 10 children, I'm like, stop it right there. Yeah, you can stop because I will not be held up as this extraordinary superhuman woman that doesn't feel what others do.
or shames those in the audience, because that isn't the case. That's not the case. So I have a role to play, and because I, we all do, but particularly because I stand out, because I have 10 children, as a white woman in developed countries, that's fairly unusual with a career, yeah? And...you know, particularly located in boardrooms. Let's just have it out there. So it's like, I'm wheeled in and I just cut that immediately. So it's why I would say it's well beyond isolation. It's well beyond that.
It's devastation, it's desolation. The experience from the interior of motherhood and trying to find support has been a journey of just continuing desperation, lots of deaths, lots of de-works. So yeah, and rebuilding. So each one of those periods that I talked about was a
And thankfully, it's been of service to other people as well. It hasn't actually turned out to be a me project, which is also okay, if it was. Of course it is. But it happens to have sparked the work that is still used in the academic School for Mothers lives on and is still making waves. Parents who think is, I'm getting...we've only had one debate which was is having a favorite child. Okay. And I thought that was I thought that was an easy one. absolute fool that I am. And I'm not but I hadn't really thought what it would be like for me personally.
And the feedback from it has been, we thought it would be an aggressive, like adversarial debate show, but actually what you've managed to produce is a, I say the word because it's, I'm so grateful, breathtaking debate. And it's like, and that's because I refuse to enter the arena to have mothers and fathers take each other apart.
I want to add to conversation. I want to heal and soothe people whilst having difference allowed in the space. We're different, we're all My experience as a white, privileged, educated woman is not the experience of other women. So I can't step over that. So yeah, that's a lot for me.
Chanel Riggle (14:32)
…if I have to explain this later, my computer decided to turn off for no explainable reason and this episode might be cut and pasted into pieces. Like it was designed by a toddler, but that is...the spirit of this podcast and newsletter.
Chanel Riggle (15:09)
That being said, I don't have any of my questions in front of me. And this is a lovely experiment. I do know that I very much agree with what you're talking about here about when I look at how I'm trying to build my own community. It's not like I've, you know, it's not like I've sat down and I've gone.
Danusia Malina-Derben (15:13)
That's okay, I can help you with them. I've got them for you.
Chanel Riggle (15:37)
I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, and that is how I'm going to build my community. That's not how Motherhood Minute started. That's not how this podcast started. It was very much, um, I'm so lonely. Is anybody out there? Would anyone like to have a conversation about anything on the spectrum from how to feed my child to my issues with…body dysmorphia as a mother that I never thought it would encounter to how do I find time to have community
other mothers when I'm working or when I was running a business and I had a baby next to me and I was just like pulling my hair out because I couldn't function and um I'm so grateful that there is I don't want to say something wrong with me there is uh something inside of me that has pushed me in my exhaustion and my loneliness to treat this as one big experiment and go
If I'm feeling this way, surely someone else must be feeling this way, so I might as well just get a conversation going. And I really appreciate that's what you've done from, you know, for example, your book Noise. I'm not 100% done with it. It's something that I read for 10 minutes at a time between everything else that's going on. But I really like how in one point...
of your book, you have the three columns, you have the internal, external, and then I love that third column. Could you talk a little bit about that, especially how it maybe pertains to building relationships with other mothers?
Danusia Malina-Derben (17:29)
So this is a huge question, just so you know. So, you know, it's the concept of noise being the external noise that we, you know, ingest, if you like, about motherhood. So right from when we were small girls, we were listening to noise about stories, narratives about motherhood, what was possible, how we should be, etc. And we will have internalised that. And so the piece that I'm saying, which is the other...contributing, the way that we contribute to the noise is what we then regurgitate.
We are reproducing that within ourselves and then we are giving it to other women. And against a set of standards and metrics that we will have decided is the good mother.
And this noise is in all of us, of course it is. It's around us, it's within us, and it's dishing out. And really the way that we can look at it is we actually have to really, you know, we have to dissect it within ourselves. The messages that we've got from the...
Where did they come from? Who did they come, who did they come from? Are they out of date? Which of course many of us do anyway. Those of us that have gone through therapeutic processes will have particularly maybe looked at this. But in relation to our motherhood and our, what's inside us and then what are we giving to other women? How are we, how are we interrupting the noise? It's like the proposition wasn't, well, the noise has to stop.
wow, good luck with that. The noise isn't going to stop, is it? It's not going to stop. We can't make it silent. It's what part are we going to take in interrupting it? So when we do notice that we have thoughts or we want to say to somebody, oh, when are you going back to work? Or, oh, Are you, oh, you're a stay at home mom now? Or, I mean, I'm using very specific examples, but they're everywhere, they're everywhere. Oh, what time do your children go to sleep? Oh, do you have, oh, you have a structure though. Oh, you don't have a structure. Oh, you sleep train. You know, co-sleeping. I mean, all of these things are embedded with our notion of what good motherhood should be like, and we are...
Chanel Riggle (19:49)
Mm-hmm.
Danusia Malina-Derben (20:11)
We have been surrounded by this, bombarded. We still are. Every, you know, all the adverts, the you know, substanies. They're everywhere.
Chanel Riggle (20:23)
Yeah, I love your example about the coat. Specifically because I received that comment quite a bit, when you have a very young, under one year old child and they've been bundled up so much in the car and then you just rush them inside and then someone goes, oh, where's that blanket? Where are the socks on that baby? Or it still happens, my daughter, she's turning three and she runs hot.
and she will just start stripping off clothes in public and it'll be like raining outside. And so I'll have specifically women go, oh, you must be so cold. And I'm like, do you think she's cold? But I was wondering, what can we do to, like you said, we can't get rid of the noise. But what can we do to changing? How we react to the things that come up within us that we might wanna say, or that other people might say to us. Do you have any suggestions?
Danusia Malina-Derben (21:32)
Well, we can't really do any of this kind of, we can't do any activism in the noise arena until we've excavated pretty forensically, I think, our own noise. And so I think becoming aware of it and how it affects us and our mothering and also how we view other mothers is going to profoundly shift things, just that in itself.
Just that will make a very big difference because our ability to other people, other mothers, will be reduced when we realize that
there's a great deal of commonality between us. It's both respecting the differences amongst us and also finding the humanity between us. So I think that building conversation is one of the biggest things that we can do. Honest conversation, loving conversation. We're not starting from the same point.
We're not. So when I talk to women for noise, one of the striking things was the chapter about motherhood being a calling.
The differences between women around, you know, white women saying one thing and black and brown women saying something else. Like, if only it were able to be our calling. If only we were allowed to be seen as a mother who could play. Because we're positioned, not white women, yeah, but as women out working, serving. I mean, really the stark differences. But because motherhood is so segmented, we are so segmented into our groups, our camps. I could call them lots of things, but there's a segmentation in motherhood. And that's in part why I wanted to conversations, actually loving conversations in Parents Who Think, because we're hearing how women from vastly, and men, vastly different backgrounds feel about things that we have big judgements on. I've deliberately stepped into the lion's mouth.
But actually get inside, get inside where people are coming from. That's all I can say really at the moment. It's, there is no, I don't have any, I wish I did, but you know, I don't have any magic solutions or a formula or, but conversation, respectful, honest conversation and understanding. And our life has got so polarized where differences, people are very scared to disagree.
very scared. You know, a cancel culture is really marred our ability to connect with humans now. So to me, you know, people are less willing to publicly say what they because of it.
Chanel Riggle (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's definitely one thing we've talked a lot about in the previous episodes and it's a subject within this topic that has kind of just come out naturally is You say you don't have any specific suggestions, but I would say you do and that is, open our minds a little bit, a little bit more than we're used to even, or a lot, and start listening to people with to the best of our ability without judging. And I think the ability to listen and have the conversations, especially with mothers who want to raise their children in a different way than how we want to raise them has
It feels painful. It feels painful sometimes. I know for myself, I've gone into groups and I have felt uncomfortable around mothers because I feel like you do come across a lot of conversation, but it doesn't sound like a conversation, so it's more just like a direct question, like why are you doing this? What are you doing in this situation without any true listening?
Danusia Malina-Derben (26:29)
It's more confrontation. I got you.
Chanel Riggle (26:29)
I feel like I've jumbled my sentence a little bit there, but we need to have more conversations with people who we don't agree with. We just need to accept it.
Danusia Malina-Derben (26:41)
That's right. That's exactly what we need. And one of the things that we, you know, many, many families teach is the little phrase or something along the lines of sharing is caring. You've got to listen to other people. We're teaching our children to these values, you know, that people are different, even at a basic level, people are different, yeah?
And then they don't witness us actually being able to take it any further. So it's, it's almost, it's not just, it would bridge many, many chasms between human beings. It's actually our children were not equipping our next generation with how to do this. And, and we need a kinder healing world than, than places of hate, that includes amongst mothers. That includes it. And there is a great deal of denigration of some mothers, mothers' choices. But you know, I'm not throwing that out at others. I've already said it comes, everything I've ever done comes for me.
You know, and so the reason this came up for me, and the reason I rebranded School for Mothers is because I, there is a right wing commentator in the UK. Her name is Katie Hopkins. And she, I interviewed her as part of the School for Mothers, you know, podcast. And I didn't, I didn't afterwards, and it was an hour interview and it was, it was called Bitch.
So all of our interviews were, my interviews were one syllable So can't, you know, bling bitch because she says she's the biggest bitch. And I, so I was like, okay, you know, I have questions for this woman, which is, are you really, are you really a bitch? Or is this just a well-worn media presentation? Because you're a mother and I'm curious how.
Do your children feel about such a publicly vilified woman who is their mommy? I'm curious. Nobody's asked of these things. So she comes on and we have a great conversation. And then I don't publish it. I put it on the shelf because I think, I don't want to amplify this woman's voice. I don't want to platform her. And then I pull myself up privately and I think, what are you doing, Danutia? What are you doing?
Who gets voice in the world? So I spent some time, believe me, I spent more time on this episode thinking, do I, don't I? I talked to some journalist friends who say, uh-uh, ruin your career. Don't even think about it. And then I put out an episode last October, I think. And it's called the episode that I was too afraid to publish.
And it is a commentary with big chunks of our conversation so that people can hear how scared I was, how my voice kind of goes like this. That's not how I speak normally. But I, you know, she wanted a fight and I wouldn't give her that. But I wanted to give her voice. I wanted to hear, how does this woman, how does she live her life?
So it was through Katie, I don't agree with her views about many, if not most, things in life. And I've been very clear with her, both rightly about that. And, I had to question, she's a mother. She's a mother.
Chanel Riggle (30:46)
Hmm.
Danusia Malina-Derben (30:49)
gets to be a mother, she gets to be human. And so it's a whole conversation about freedom of speech, you know, protection of the vulnerable, etc. And so as a result of that I realized, am I equipped, am I equipped as that person that could produce a show that holds polarizing predictable views?
progressive views. Can I do that? And quite frankly, Chanel, I wasn't sure if I could do it. I was absolutely terrified. And the production elements in it are huge. And I certainly didn't come on your podcast to talk about my podcast, but it's absolutely about respect for mothers. And it can't be for some mothers.
Like, oh, we love those soft, gentle mothers who seem to be, you know, we can't do that, can we? It's a question. I don't, I think we have to open the space up. And when we talk about sustaining communities, who are we asking to be in our communities? And what we sustaining, who are we wanting to cut the loneliness for? Who are we wanting to, you know, support in their desolation because let's just be honest there's no mother that hasn't wept at night there is no mother that hasn't woken at night worrying that she's not the mother that she could be
Chanel Riggle (32:32)
So beautiful. I am so glad that you... this has turned into a conversation where you have helped us see and ask ourselves what kind of conversations we're having with other mothers and are we only seeking community building with mothers who feel the most like us versus any mother because you're what background you come from. We've all wept over our children. And being a mother and what does that mean and questioning how that identity affects our life for other people's perceptions of us, our perceptions of ourselves. And recognizing that universal struggle is such a gift. It's literally mothers have a gift it's the difference between before I was a mother, I was constantly, without mercy and often without realizing, judging that mother is either a good mother or a bad mother. And I don't know what my criteria was. Sometimes it was the way that they treat their child in public or spoke about their children in private, whatever it was. And, um, no.
Danusia Malina-Derben (33:55)
Yeah, the tone of their voice, what they were dressed for, you know.
Chanel Riggle (34:01)
No matter no matter who I am Talking to now or what season I'm in I at least know That becoming a mother has helped me see mothers in a completely different light not perfectly Often still very imperfectly, but I have this deeper empathy Because I know from I think maybe only personal experience will truly let someone know how complicated motherhood is.
Danusia Malina-Derben (34:38)
Yes, yes, how devastatingly glorious it is, how undoing it is, and yet how growing it is. So it's, you know, and that cuts across everybody. And for me, that's where the big gaps in communities have been. It's very, very easy actually, albeit there's some challenge to build community with our mirrors, with people like us. It's simpler. It is more complex and more, it holds enormous potential to be able to open, open ourselves. And actually, we will heal ourselves to the degree that we can invite others into our circle.
Danusia Malina-Derben (35:37)
that are different from us. We will heal. I think it's so important, and I can tell you I'm thoroughly at my edge in times, well, I'm thoroughly at my edge in motherhood, but I'm thoroughly at my, I have, the triplets are…You know, I mean, they're a whole other conversation, having triplets, but nevertheless, in terms of attempting this in a show where I carry my stuff, and I'm definitely anything but a perfect person and mother, and I will be showcasing that in public.
So that's so many layers of jeopardy for me. Yeah, I'm deeply committed to it because I know that, you know, that's my form of community building. It's different than, say, Zoe's, which I absolutely love, Zoe Gardner's work, and different than your other guests. We each bring our magic to what we can bring, you know, how we can make our difference, I
Chanel Riggle (36:49)
I hope for anyone reading or listening to these episodes, I hope they are really encouraged and not discouraged, but truly encouraged by how different these communities look. Um, it doesn't have to be in person, it doesn't have to be in the digital space, and certainly it does not have to be with mothers who parent or look or sound just like us.
And I encourage everyone to branch out as much as possible and see what fruit comes of it. I don't wanna take up too much more of your time, especially with all of the fun technical difficulties that we've had today. And I appreciate your flexibility so much and your time.
Chanel Riggle (37:44)
Thank you so much for joining me. If there's anything else you'd like to add before we wrap things up.
Danusia Malina-Derben (37:50)
Well, I'm gonna ask you to ask me the one thing that I'm gonna set down and the one thing I'm gonna pick up because you always ask your guests, so I know. That's okay.
Chanel Riggle (37:58)
Yes!
I do. Thank you. What is one thing you would like to set down and what is one thing you'd like to pick up?
Danusia Malina-Derben (38:10)
I'm always a podcast host you see. I know you'll be like damn I need to ask her that. I know. So I would like to set down the dial on my exacting standards for myself. Yeah so I am doing so well on that.
Chanel Riggle (38:17)
What?
Danusia Malina-Derben (38:37)
I have very, very high standards and expectations of myself, but it's a finely tuned dance between holding big visions of impact with the work that I do in everything I do and West. So that's something I'd like to dial down, set down just a little.
the expectations, not perfection, I've long gone from that. It's the kind of the standards that I hold for myself, which is why I can stand on a stage and say, I am not that superwoman, because I already know it's a setup, because it's the inner work that I've been doing. So one of my favorite testimonials actually about the...
the podcasting is, a woman wrote something like, oh my God, I, sorry, that's not a very nice phrase, but oh goodness, you know, I think she put, oh God, I really, really thought this was gonna be one of those smug women with all these brood of kids. Turns out, actually, she's nothing like that.
because that was her narrative. That was the stuff she'd been taught, that all these damned women with a brood of kids, they'll be like X, and X. So it just makes me laugh. The thing I'd like to pick up is...
gonna make me... well it is making me giggle! I'd like to pick up even more orgasms.
Chanel Riggle (40:19)
Even more what?
Danusia Malina-Derben (40:20)
Orgasms!
That's what I want to pick up.
Chanel Riggle (40:30)
I love it!
Danusia Malina-Derben (40:33)
So listen, I've got a couple of things to say, which is sisterhood is oxygen, okay? Sisterhood is oxygen. And we have to remember that with communities, with mothers. But orgasms are fuel and nourishment. And they're a creative force. They're a creative force. And we do not, we underplay their...
It's a whole nother conversation, but we underplay their source of creativity. The libido is a life force. So I leave you with that. You know what I'm talking about.
Chanel Riggle (41:14)
I just love it so much. I love where this conversation has gone and all of it. What an adventure. I'm gonna have to put a little disclaimer for my fellow American audience members.
Danusia Malina-Derben (41:31)
Are Americans anti-orgasm?
Chanel Riggle (41:34)
say we're anti-orgasm, I feel like we are pretty prude at talking about it. Unless you specifically have declared like, you have come to this space and this is what we are going to talk about. It's so weird, the culture, it's like, I don't know. It's the way that sexuality and sex is viewed here is just so bizarre.
Danusia Malina-Derben (42:01)
Exactly. And I would say it was a nice reminder that for at least maybe 50% of the women that have conceived maybe 50% of them involved some sexual activity.
Because obviously a lot of us, I include myself, have had, you know, we've had some intervention or, you know, we've needed some assistance in that. Not with my triplets I didn't actually, but...
other children and so I you know I do recognize that conception is not always a sexual activity but nevertheless for a lot of us it is so it's quite funny that we would that we would need it
Chanel Riggle (42:48)
This is a whole other conversation that I'm so tempted to go down right now, but we won't. We'll have a future conversation about why we can't accept the fact that mothers can want orgasms and talk about it when they clearly have not remained virgin their whole life.
Danusia Malina-Derben (42:53)
But let's have another conversation another time.
engaged.
Chanel Riggle (43:16)
Like the most evident. The most evident. Okay.
Danusia Malina-Derben (43:18)
Yes! Exactly. Well I'll leave you there. So here's me over in the UK, that's what I'm picking up. You're really welcome.
Chanel Riggle (43:24)
I love it.
Risha, thank you so much for ending us on such a high note. I love it. I will...
Danusia Malina-Derben (43:36)
A climax
Come on, we must say goodbye.
Chanel Riggle (43:45)
Oh, I'm trying so hard not to make more puns on this. Okay, cutting, we're cutting this off. I will gladly share all of your information with our listeners and and I will do my best to stop this conversation without too much. Okay, we're good, we're good. We're really good. Thank you everyone for joining us today.
Danusia Malina-Derben (44:08)
We're really good, thank you so much. You know, absolutely. Yeah, thank you.
Chanel Riggle (44:13)
Specifically you, I know it's probably much later in the day, and thank you for dealing with all the technical issues. And I just really appreciate your time so much.
Danusia Malina-Derben (44:23)
Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for listening. This has been a beautiful thing. Thank you.
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